RS485 Safety

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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby A_Camera » Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:20 pm

Vmax549 wrote:Hiya A. Just because you went to school does not mean you have any common sense . Just look at ALL the engineers that designed all of those VFDs and ALL of them say NOT to do it. Yep they must not have a brain one.

Just a thought, (;-) TP

More BS from you...

Safety is not about common sense, and it is definitely NOT for amateurs like you. Anyway, the one lacking common sense in this conversation is you, because common sense says NOTHING can go wrong with an additional safety level of this sort. The worst that can happen is that you start milling with the safety switch off and the spindle not rotating, and as a result you break a bit or destroy the work. Your hands, your VFD and your spindle is perfectly safe in that situation.

Once again, if you claim something you have to be able to back it up with proof, and you have NEVER ever managed that. Yes, there are warnings about using it as a switch to switch the spindle on or off, but not, there is no warning anywhere against such safety switch to ISOLATE the VFD from the spindle so that rotation will be prevented. Manual switch or a contactor, makes no difference as long as it is used as a SAFETY feature, not a spindle ON/OFF switch. THAT is what the warnings are about, and that is where your understanding fails.
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby A_Camera » Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:25 pm

fixebr wrote:
A_Camera wrote:None of the above is relevant. To start with, if you have bad wiring than THAT is a problem. If you don't know how to connect things and how to wire your gear then maybe it would be better to ask somebody to do it for you, or buy ready made equipment with warranty. If you add six more connections it does not mean that you have higher risk for bad wiring, at least not if you know what you are doing, and if you don't know then you should not fiddle with high voltage anyway.
The second thing is once again that I NEVER said you should use this as a switch to switch the motor on or off. There is no point in explaining to me how this motor is different from other motors, I know that, I am an electrical engineer from the start and know more than 90% of the people on this forum regarding electrical wiring, safety and so on. So instead of quoting text you don't understand, you should try to read AND understand what's been asked for by the OP, and what my answer was to him.
Another point is that I am NOT saying what people should or should not do, I only show how I did it, and tried to explain why. There are far to many amateurs out there who believe that reading Wikipedia (at best) is more than enough to learn everything about electricity... well, it's not enough. That's why some of us went to schools, colleges and universities, to LEARN about it.
Another thing is that my "switch" is not a switch as you seem to understand. It is a "safety switch", and is used to ISOLATE the current source from the equipment to provide safety, not to switch on or off under load. Of course, stupid people may use it that way, but that can't be helped.

Now it has become obvious that Google Translate has freed my words drastically.
I do not assume that you are using your switch to "turn on or off the spindle". I did not mean anything like that. I am not an idiot and perfectly understand how our spindles work, and in electronics, I understand it well enough to understand why my VFD can burn when problems with wiring to the spindle. I have more than 15 years of experience with a different kind of powerful technique and in microelectronics.

Let's try differently.

The advantages of your chuck between the VFD and the spindle: in an abnormal situation, it will not allow the spindle to rotate, since you essentially chose it from VFD.
The cons of your chipboard between the VFD and the spindle: it may not be approached for high-grade work and high-inductive load, it may not provide an ideal connection without a rattle of contacts, it directly violates the instructions of VFD manufacturers. In addition, there you need a switch on 3 phases always, even if your VFD is connected only to one phase of the power supply (and most of the fans are working with a VFD by 2.2 kilowatt connected to a single-phase network of 220/230 volts).

Pluses of the chub between the VFD and the power supply: it will de-energize the VFD and will ensure the absence of the spindle. At the same time, it will protect VFD from problems completely, as he is de-energized.
Minuses of the chub between the VFD and the power supply: it may not be convenient if the VFD is installed in the control cabinet at the distance from the machine.

Isn't it obvious that the second way is safer and corresponds to the specified manufacturer?

And about the brake resistor: this is a good idea if you use a massive tool or your motor rotates a massive spindle with a mandrel. But for the spindle 2.2 kilowatta - it seems to me that it is too unclear. It will also stop in 1.5 seconds with active braking of VFD (without causing it heating over the measure). If you have a spindle 4-5 kilowatt and above, you will have to set the braking time of 4-5 seconds.

It is very difficult to have a sensible discussion when you don't understand the language and rely on Google translate to 100%. Sorry, but I can't continue, and I don't understand anything you are saying, at least not clearly enough to have conversation. Also, you are wrong regarding that brake resistor, but it doesn't matter since most cheap VFD I know of does not have that feature anyway.
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby Vmax549 » Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:47 pm

Being I worked in the industry for over 5 decades OF COURSE I know how to do it safely. The question is being the professional that you are "WHY" don't YOU know how to do it in a professional manner and do it safely . It is one of the first things you learn dealing with power transmission. Safety 101.

(;-) TP
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby DavidR8 » Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:29 pm

The sniping is getting tiresome.
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby A_Camera » Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:45 pm

Vmax549 wrote:Being I worked in the industry for over 5 decades OF COURSE I know how to do it safely. The question is being the professional that you are "WHY" don't YOU know how to do it in a professional manner and do it safely . It is one of the first things you learn dealing with power transmission. Safety 101.

(;-) TP

You didn't understand it 6 years ago and you don't understand it now.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/uccnc-control-software/304182-pcb-autoleveler-plugin-uccnc-2.html#post1950206

The fact that you been working with mills on the floor does not mean that you know what you are talking about, no matter if you've been working for 5 decades or more. Luckily you never designed any of those machines you have used... Knowing how to mill or operate a machine is NOT the same as knowing everything about everything connected to that machine, as you seem to believe. ...but once again, you are making silly claims based on "just because I say so" and "I am old enough..." and similar nonsense. In fact, even the cheapo HY VFD has this in the manual:

It's Chinglish but some of us understands the meaning anyway.

Image

The above is from a HY VFD manual, and the below is from another VFD.

Image

You didn't understand the subject on CNC Zone and you still don't understand, you should however stop pretending that you know the subject, because your claims are really silly, not to be taken seriously.
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby A_Camera » Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:49 pm

DavidR8 wrote:The sniping is getting tiresome.

Yes, and I had my last word about it. Anyway, I was stalked by that silly person with his "I know it all" attitude, and since this thread is about safety, it is important to point out that he does not have a clue about safety, even he claims he has. The OP was (rightfully) concerned about his hands and fingers, but of course, in the end, we are all adults and do as we like.
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby Dazp1976 » Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:59 pm

My $0.02 is that:
If you can't read a wiring diagram, don't bother with cnc.
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby ger21 » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:58 pm

Dazp1976 wrote:My $0.02 is that:
If you can't read a wiring diagram, don't bother with cnc.


I can follow a simple diagram, and enough for most hobby stuff.
But the 200 page diagram that comes with our Morbidelli at work, I call a professional.
Gerry
UCCNC 2022 Screenset - http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2022.html
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby Vmax549 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:28 pm

HIYA "A" you still don't have it right (;-) quoting that HY manual proved my point. Your method does NOT ensure that the unit cannot be power up when operating the switch. There is really only one method to meet that safety requirement for the operator and the equipment and you don't have it yet.

Just a thought , (;-) TP
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Re: RS485 Safety

Postby Dan911 » Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:43 pm

alanmccabe wrote:Hi All I am using an AXBB controller with an RS 485 adapter and the plugin from Dan911 to very successfully control my Huanyang VFD and spindle. It woks flawlessly, however always worry when I am changing a tool incase the spindle starts for some obscure reason. Is that possible and is there a way to prevent it with maybe a relay.

This is the controller
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01 ... UTF8&psc=1


ps I am not super technical so a simple explanation would be useful :-)


Thanks in advance.
Alan


Fun read :lol: Somethings never change.

Hey Alan,
The best safety advice I read here was to avoid the USB connector if you can. I been using the same serial connector for over 5 years without a hip cup of trouble, I've done a lot of testing with different usb and had quite a few lost connections.
I realize serial ports are becoming out dated so I would look into the Ethernet hub Acamera linked.

Dan
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