ProbeIt for UCCNC

[dhanger]

Hi Eric-

I just recently discovered ProbeIt, I've been on this forum for a couple years now since I converted to UCCNC, not sure why it took me so long to catch on! This is a great tool for me, I've done a lot of reverse engineering on plastic injection molds over the years, but a year ago I changed jobs and left behind a real Starrett CMM that I miss as I used it very frequently. Looks to me like ProbeIt will be able to fill in a fair amount of functionality that I've been missing since then so I'm looking forward to finding out how well it will work for me. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Since installing the demo it's been counting down 20 days (down to about 17 now), I read other places that you had changed the demo length to 60 days so I'm confused. I'm not sure 20 days is going to be long enough for me--I recently sold to my current employer one of a pair of small industrial 3 axis mills I had done a complete rebuild on, the other one I am in the process of rebuilding so it's not running--all this to say that the amount of time I get on the working mill to test ProbeIt is very limited. 60 days would be much better than 20 obviously, so I would appreciate clarification on this.

2. I'd like to get your comments on an issue I've been thinking about and wondering if I'm overthinking it or not. On the CMM during calibration the probe is calibrated in full 3 dimensions, that is, the effective diameter is taken into account in full 3d space. ProbeIt's calibration only works on the XY plane and so in my mind the effective diameter is not really true, it's more of an egg shaped probed then. Or is it? For example, my probe is exactly 0.125" diameter but when I calibrate it the effective diameter is 0.118", so is the distance from the tip of the probe still 0.0625" or 0.059", and is there going to be an error of 0.0035" when probing in XZ or YZ? Of course at the tip the Z depth would be true, and any probing exactly at the center would be true, but what about everything in between? Like I said maybe I'm just overthinking it but I would appreciate hearing your thoughts (or other forum members') on this. I'm sure that amount of error is not a concern to some but for moldmaking it's fairly significant.

Parenthetically, before using ProbeIt to calibrate the probe, I had probed a 1-2-3 block to acquire the effective diameter in using UCCNC's probe utilities and came up with exactly the same value as ProbeIt did to 3 decimal places, so it was nice to have 2 different methods confirm each other, it gives me confidence that ProbeIt is going to be accurate.

Overall I really like what I'm seeing and look forward to running it through its paces--at this point I'm pretty sure it's a buy, probably two licenses once I get my other mill running, and considering the reasonable price maybe the demo length is not that much of an issue.

Thanks for putting out a great utility, it's obvious that you're pretty meticulous about your work and it's always great to work with a developer as responsive as you seem to be (something I really appreciate about CNCDrive as well).

Dan Hanger

[Delco]

Hi Eric-

I just recently discovered ProbeIt, I've been on this forum for a couple years now since I converted to UCCNC, not sure why it took me so long to catch on! This is a great tool for me, I've done a lot of reverse engineering on plastic injection molds over the years, but a year ago I changed jobs and left behind a real Starrett CMM that I miss as I used it very frequently. Looks to me like ProbeIt will be able to fill in a fair amount of functionality that I've been missing since then so I'm looking forward to finding out how well it will work for me. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. Since installing the demo it's been counting down 20 days (down to about 17 now), I read other places that you had changed the demo length to 60 days so I'm confused. I'm not sure 20 days is going to be long enough for me--I recently sold to my current employer one of a pair of small industrial 3 axis mills I had done a complete rebuild on, the other one I am in the process of rebuilding so it's not running--all this to say that the amount of time I get on the working mill to test ProbeIt is very limited. 60 days would be much better than 20 obviously, so I would appreciate clarification on this.

2. I'd like to get your comments on an issue I've been thinking about and wondering if I'm overthinking it or not. On the CMM during calibration the probe is calibrated in full 3 dimensions, that is, the effective diameter is taken into account in full 3d space. ProbeIt's calibration only works on the XY plane and so in my mind the effective diameter is not really true, it's more of an egg shaped probed then. Or is it? For example, my probe is exactly 0.125" diameter but when I calibrate it the effective diameter is 0.118", so is the distance from the tip of the probe still 0.0625" or 0.059", and is there going to be an error of 0.0035" when probing in XZ or YZ? Of course at the tip the Z depth would be true, and any probing exactly at the center would be true, but what about everything in between? Like I said maybe I'm just overthinking it but I would appreciate hearing your thoughts (or other forum members') on this. I'm sure that amount of error is not a concern to some but for moldmaking it's fairly significant.

Parenthetically, before using ProbeIt to calibrate the probe, I had probed a 1-2-3 block to acquire the effective diameter in using UCCNC's probe utilities and came up with exactly the same value as ProbeIt did to 3 decimal places, so it was nice to have 2 different methods confirm each other, it gives me confidence that ProbeIt is going to be accurate.

Overall I really like what I'm seeing and look forward to running it through its paces--at this point I'm pretty sure it's a buy, probably two licenses once I get my other mill running, and considering the reasonable price maybe the demo length is not that much of an issue.

Thanks for putting out a great utility, it's obvious that you're pretty meticulous about your work and it's always great to work with a developer as responsive as you seem to be (something I really appreciate about CNCDrive as well).

Dan Hanger

For what it can do probelt is cheap , if you cant see its value to you within 20 days then you obviously dont need it.

[Soler]

Probeit is well worth the investment

[eabrust]

Hi Eric-

1. Since installing the demo it's been counting down 20 days (down to about 17 now), I read other places that you had changed the demo length to 60 days so I'm confused. I'm not sure 20 days is going to be long enough for me--I recently sold to my current employer one of a pair of small industrial 3 axis mills I had done a complete rebuild on, the other one I am in the process of rebuilding so it's not running--all this to say that the amount of time I get on the working mill to test ProbeIt is very limited. 60 days would be much better than 20 obviously, so I would appreciate clarification on this.

2. I'd like to get your comments on an issue I've been thinking about and wondering if I'm overthinking it or not. On the CMM during calibration the probe is calibrated in full 3 dimensions, that is, the effective diameter is taken into account in full 3d space. ProbeIt's calibration only works on the XY plane and so in my mind the effective diameter is not really true, it's more of an egg shaped probed then. Or is it? For example, my probe is exactly 0.125" diameter but when I calibrate it the effective diameter is 0.118", so is the distance from the tip of the probe still 0.0625" or 0.059", and is there going to be an error of 0.0035" when probing in XZ or YZ? Of course at the tip the Z depth would be true, and any probing exactly at the center would be true, but what about everything in between? Like I said maybe I'm just overthinking it but I would appreciate hearing your thoughts (or other forum members') on this. I'm sure that amount of error is not a concern to some but for moldmaking it's fairly significant.

Hi Dan, hope you are well, and thanks for taking ProbeIt for a spin.

To clarify your questions a bit:

1) The trial duration was reduced from 60 to 20 days, mainly due to getting initial versions and bugs sorted out.

2) This is a good question you have, and I think it is good to clarify. The main point of the x/y calibration as it is, is to take up as much of the error due to probe tip deflection (pre trigger), and axis backlash as possible in hobby machines, of which I have a couple

The 'calibration' data is taken only in the X/Y plane, and is only applied to the basic probe routines that are performed in the X/Y plane (and also to the X/Y perimeter tracing routine). When you run the routines that probe in X/Z or Y/Z, or the surface point cloud routines, the 'average ball diameter' is used (along with the probe vector direction) to determine the surface hit location. So you don't have to worry that the calibration data taken in X/Y is affecting the the other directions incorrectly, but there is no real calibration applied in these directions either, it just uses the average value for the ball...

While it might be a fun challenge to try to create a full 3D calibration for the ball tip, at the hobbyist level, no one (including me) is going to have a CMM calibration reference/sphere to touch off on to achieve this, and I also don't personally have machines that are 'accurate' enough to make this worth while. The last point, the math involved is probably beyond my current programming capability too...

appreciate the question, as you obviously have a fair bit of CMM knowledge.


regards
Eric

[dhanger]

Hi Eric--

Warning, this is a long post but I hope you'll take the time to look it over.

Hi Dan, hope you are well, and thanks for taking ProbeIt for a spin.

To clarify your questions a bit:

1) The trial duration was reduced from 60 to 20 days, mainly due to getting initial versions and bugs sorted out.
Eric

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Not exactly what I was hoping for, but what little time I've had with it I'm very impressed and so far have no reason not to make the jump.

2) This is a good question you have, and I think it is good to clarify. The main point of the x/y calibration as it is, is to take up as much of the error due to probe tip deflection (pre trigger), and axis backlash as possible in hobby machines, of which I have a couple

The 'calibration' data is taken only in the X/Y plane, and is only applied to the basic probe routines that are performed in the X/Y plane (and also to the X/Y perimeter tracing routine). When you run the routines that probe in X/Z or Y/Z, or the surface point cloud routines, the 'average ball diameter' is used (along with the probe vector direction) to determine the surface hit location. So you don't have to worry that the calibration data taken in X/Y is affecting the the other directions incorrectly, but there is no real calibration applied in these directions either, it just uses the average value for the ball...

While it might be a fun challenge to try to create a full 3D calibration for the ball tip, at the hobbyist level, no one (including me) is going to have a CMM calibration reference/sphere to touch off on to achieve this, and I also don't personally have machines that are 'accurate' enough to make this worth while. The last point, the math involved is probably beyond my current programming capability too...

Yesterday I had a chance to play around with it and ran a couple of tests. Previously I had tried out the probe calibration at a slow speed (2 ipm) but this time I upped it to 10 ipm, and as expected the effective diameter was quite a bit different this time, but I wanted to run a perimeter test at a higher speed than 2 ipm so it wouldn't take so long yet hopefully still be accurate. I then set up a bearing with a 62mm OD (2.4409") and ran XY perimeter all the way around at 10 ipm. Transferred the DXF into CAD and fitted a 3 point circle, the result was 2.4405". I was very impressed!

Next I put the bearing up on edge in a vise so I could run a XZ perimeter test halfway around, again at 10 ipm. When I fitted another 3 point circle it was off by a full 0.002", pretty much in line with what I was expecting. Not a criticism, just an experimental observation based on my original question to you.

I've been giving this a lot of thought and have an idea/suggestion/proposal to put to you. What I propose I believe is well within your capabilities, and something that I would pay extra for (as long as it wasn't astronomical ). Something that you could possibly make unlockable, like maybe a Professional version, say. It's also something that would cover probably over 90% of my needs/wants in probing software. My work involves a lot of probing in all three planes but require accuracy for fit and function. Now I can fully appreciate what you say about the math involved in 3d probing like a real CMM, but I don't think all that is really necessary (at least for my purposes) and could be handled in a much simpler way. My idea is to use a tooling ball/sphere like a CMM and create a calibration routine with lookup tables for all three planes, similar to what you have now for XY but also for the other two planes. For myself I wouldn't need a real CMM calibration sphere, I can buy a 3/4" tooling ball from McMaster with +/-0.0002" tolerance for about 35 dollars, very reasonable and accurate enough. So the calibration would look something like this, much like the current calibration with some added moves:

1. First input the real probe diameter and the tooling ball diameter and center the probe above the tooling ball.

2. Probe the top of the ball to initialize, then move out and down to probe the ball diameter at the C/L for XY calibration. At this point you have a pretty accurate idea where the ball is in 3d space, and you could make this an iterative process to refine the data, just like your current routine.

3. Now you can switch to the other two planes and probe halfway around the ball to build the other two lookup tables for when the user wants to probe in XZ and YZ perimeter.

So that's my idea and would like to get your thoughts on it. A couple of caveats to add, 1) I realize that your time is limited and maybe this is not something you really want to tackle, although like I said I think you're fully capable of it and I don't see it as all that complicated, but maybe I'm wrong, and 2) I wouldn't want some new feature to interfere with getting the current software ironed out, as nobody could be more appreciative of 'polished' and functional software as myself. I've seen it too many times, software companies rushing to add new features for potential new customers at the expense of fixing stupid bugs that seem to always persist.

Look forward to your input,
Dan

[Delco]

Eric is there a function to probe around a part to find the centre , I understand there is for a circle but what about a rectangle. I noticed with the pathpilot software you can do this . Bit of a pain in the UCCNC probe screen as you need to know the rough dimensions of the part and input that into the travel fields . Would be nice to walk around a part at a set distance apart to determine the rectangle size and then work out centre.

[eabrust]

Eric is there a function to probe around a part to find the centre , I understand there is for a circle but what about a rectangle. I noticed with the pathpilot software you can do this . Bit of a pain in the UCCNC probe screen as you need to know the rough dimensions of the part and input that into the travel fields . Would be nice to walk around a part at a set distance apart to determine the rectangle size and then work out center.

Hi Delco,

You can find the center of either a rectangular 'pocket' or rectangular 'post/box' shape, and either get the location as a measurement, or zero the position.

If you are trying to get inside of a rectangular pocket center, set the 'pocket/post' type to 'rectangular', and set the 'probe distance' be be large enough that it will touch the furthest away wall from where you start the probe at. (see yellow highlighted items in pic)

If you are trying to get center by measuring OUTSIDE of a rectangular post, set the pocket/post' type to 'rectangular', and then use the values for Post/Ridge clearance move distance (independent values for x and y) to be large enough to get clear of the part sides from where you start the probe event (starting over the top). (see red scribbles in pic)

Now if your 'rectangular pocket' is not square to your x/y axes, this is where you would want to set 'part rotation', so that angle defines one of the sides of your rectangle as it is rotated away from X axis. You would do this prior to running the pocket routine, as the pocket routine will be rotated by that angle so it probes the sides 'squarely', and will then generate the DXF data at the right angle (ie, draw a rotated rectangle).

Let me know if this helps, or if you have any other questions.

regards,
Eric

[eabrust]

Hi Eric--

Warning, this is a long post but I hope you'll take the time to look it over.


Look forward to your input,

Dan

Hey Dan, I'll definitely give this a read through and do some thinking, might take me a bit to let it sink in and give it some thought.

I appreciate your perspective and input on the topic.

regards

[CL_MotoTech]

Eric, I have been running into some issues using probing the perimeter of this water pump housing that I am reverse engineering.



When I got to output the DXF I get the crash screen that asks if I want to continue or quit. I have continued a few times but generally it's a lost cause from there.

I am also having an issue where it closes the loop on the perimeter at about 60% distance, not even close to getting all the way around. Perhaps I need to review the manual again.

Code: Select all

See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.

************** Exception Text **************
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at ProbeIt.frmViewer.clearView()
   at ProbeIt.PluginForm.ClearScreen()
   at ProbeIt.PluginForm.closeDXFbutton_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Button.OnMouseUp(MouseEventArgs mevent)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseUp(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.ButtonBase.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.Button.WndProc(Message& m)
   at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)


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    CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/Microsoft.CSharp/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/Microsoft.CSharp.dll
----------------------------------------
System.Dynamic
    Assembly Version: 4.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.7.2556.0
    CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System.Dynamic/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b03f5f7f11d50a3a/System.Dynamic.dll
----------------------------------------
Anonymously Hosted DynamicMethods Assembly
    Assembly Version: 0.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.7.2633.0 built by: NET471REL1LAST_C
    CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_64/mscorlib/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/mscorlib.dll
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yfvobki2
    Assembly Version: 0.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.7.2556.0 built by: NET471REL1
    CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
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svckxfnc
    Assembly Version: 0.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.7.2556.0 built by: NET471REL1
    CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
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4k5ecour
    Assembly Version: 0.0.0.0
    Win32 Version: 4.7.2556.0 built by: NET471REL1
    CodeBase: file:///C:/WINDOWS/Microsoft.Net/assembly/GAC_MSIL/System/v4.0_4.0.0.0__b77a5c561934e089/System.dll
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************** JIT Debugging **************
To enable just-in-time (JIT) debugging, the .config file for this
application or computer (machine.config) must have the
jitDebugging value set in the system.windows.forms section.
The application must also be compiled with debugging
enabled.

For example:

<configuration>
    <system.windows.forms jitDebugging="true" />
</configuration>

When JIT debugging is enabled, any unhandled exception
will be sent to the JIT debugger registered on the computer
rather than be handled by this dialog box.




[eabrust]

Hi CL_moto, hope things are well!


Sorry you're having issues, but can you confirm you're using a 1.xxx version of the plugin instead of a 2.0xx version? Based on the error, I think you are, but want to be sure.

The crash you're getting is related to the viewer, which has been re-done for the 2.xxx, and the code subroutine you're crash shows no longer exists with the new viewer..

Please update to the latest version, I won't promise 0 bugs, but it will be better (and give you more features to boot, like layer control). I don't know of a way yet to make the plugin check for a later version on the website, but if the version on the website is newer than what you have, there's a 99% chance it is due to bug fixing, and 1% due to new features.
** I forgot to mention, read the 'readme' file when you install the version 2.xxx , there are a few .dll files you can remove from the UCCNC folder when you upgrade, listed at the top of the readme.txt file. **


regarding the stop on complete a loop, I'll look into that. Can you confirm you did not pause/restart during the profile and it still auto stopped in the wrong spot? If you pause/start, that tends to mess it up, and I'm trying to figure out what is messing it up.

regards,
Eric